Curse

Rieselle · Sep 30, 2005, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

for those who said no love for fire:
Incendiary Bonds – Increased damage to 20..80.
Searing Heat - Removed Exhaustion.

Also, according to the "secret changes" thread here in riverside, Rotgorts invocation has been buffed too.

However, none of this makes fire any more useful for pvp.

Mysterial · Sep 30, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Before the update, the Mesmer could have 3 main jobs (in non-specialized builds) - interruption, frag bombing or energy denial. Now that you've taken away energy denial, we only have interruption (pretty much forcing us to all concentrate on Domination). You make an entire profession devoid of variety and fun and then you expect the mesmers to be happy because of the "new skill monitor"'s potential at doing a single job? Yay?

Mesmers can still do energy denial quite well; it's just that now, like most other Mesmer tasks, it's more reactionary than active. Guilt and Shame still steal a good amount of energy, Power Leak still burns a gigantic amount, etc. You just can't spam around Energy Drain/Tap and expect to drain targets dry anymore.

Freyas · Sep 30, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

What boggles me is that people are complaining about every skill getting nerfed- let's look at the nerf/buff average with this update:

Mesmer:

Buffs- Epidemic, Guilt

Nerfs- Hex Breaker, Soothing Images, Diversion, Signet of Weariness

Mixed- Energy Drain, Energy Tap, Ether Feast, Fragility, Mantra of Persistance

Sure, energy denial via inspiration got reduced, but the average energy gain from the skills got buffed- you can now use Energy Drain to full effect(for yourself) against an enemy with 10 energy instead of having no benefit for enemies with low energy levels.

Hex breaker was far overpowered- 5 energy instant-cast for hex immunity, basically- compare that to even a straight remove hex- 2 second cast, 5 energy, 7 recharge, and you have to suffer through the effects of the hex.

Soothing Images was a little powerful for 10 energy- basically shut down a group of warriors with a fast recast and 10 energy cost.

Diversion was far too spammable- with some energy management, you could basically lock one person down indefinately using it. It's a bit harder now, but can still be used to good effect.

Overall, I agree with all of these changes- Inspiration is a utility line, not shutdown- if you look at the other skills, they all boost your effectiveness. Illusion/Domination are the lines based around shutting down an opponent. When 2-3 skills from inspiration magic were able to shut down a person more than a skillbar full of illusion/domination skills, there's something wrong. Energy Drain/Tap/Ether Feast are still useful skills- in fact for any non-denial purpose, they were buffed. And Energy Denial still works fine- I was playing in the arena earlier and was triggering mindwrack on elementalists in about 5 seconds- obviously the update didn't kill it- it just made it more difficult than having 2 skills that anyone could mindlessly use.

Buffs: 2, Nerfs: 4, Mixed: 4

Necromancer

Buffs: Necrotic Traversal, Unholy Feast, Insidious Parasite, Dark Bond, Infuse Condition, Vile Touch, Desecrate Enchantments, Aura of the Lich, Grenth's Balance, Vampiric Touch, Blood Renewal, Plague Signet

Nerfs: Order of Pain, Order of the Vampire, Dark Fury, Faintheartedness

Mixed: Rend Enchantments

The necro really got a lot of skill buffs, on a lot of skills that rarely if ever saw the light of day. The only nerfs put the affected skills on par with the range of other skills(such as Heal Party/Aegis), and Rend Enchantments gained a benefit for investing points into curses for it.

Buffs: 12, Nerfs: 4, Mixed: 1

Elementalist

Buffs: Whirlwind, Kinetic Armor, Magnetic Armor, Incendiary Bonds, Searing Heat, Glyph of Sacrifice, Glyph of Renewal, Rust, Mind Freeze, Frozen Burst, Ice Spear, Lightning Touch, Deep Freeze, Windborne Speed

Nerfs: Ether Renewal, Ward Against Foes

Mixed: Ether Prodigy

Some very nice buffs, with a big nerf to Ether Renewal and a minor one to Ward Against Foes. Ether Prodigy now triggers damage more often, but provides a lot more energy, making it a buff overall, in my opinion. Ether Renewal was likely the most broken and abused skill in the game before this update, so I think it was a good nerf. It can be difficult to make good use of now, but it's still useable and powerful with the right build. Much better than the infinite energy that it used to provide.

Buffs: 14, Nerfs: 2, Mixed: 1

Monk

Buffs: Smite, Divine Intervention, Pacifism, Amity, Mark of Protection, Divine Healing, Live Vicariously, Divine Spirit, Holy Strike, Holy Veil

Nerfs: Draw Condition, Aegis, Balthazar's Aura, Zealot's Fire

Mixed: Shield of Deflection, Vital Blessing

Single target smiting skills got boosted while the AoE ones got nerfed some. A lot of nice buffs for some of the unused skills that make them look somewhat useful now.

Buffs:10, Nerfs: 3, Mixed: 2

Warrior

Buffs: Cleave, Endure Pain, Belly Smash, Earth Shaker, Dolyak Signet, Shield Bash, Warrior's Endurace, Riposte, Deadly Riposte, Defy Pain, Skull Crack

Nerfs: Fear Me

Mixed: none

A lot of buffs which should help out considerably- some may still be a little weak, but overall, this update significantly helped out warrior skills.

Buffs: 11, Nerfs: 1, Mixed: 0

Ranger

Buffs: Called Shot, Point Blank Shot, Read the Wind, Escape, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge

Nerfs: Debilitating Shot, Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Concussion Shot, Punishing Shot

Mixed: Dust Trap

Good boosts on skills that were sub-par. The only real nerfs was to correct an issue with the interrupts that was introduced with the last update- you were never intended to be able to fire off 4 arrows a second. The delay just takes the interrupts back to having the same time as normal attacks, just frontloaded so that you can actually interrupt with them. Dust Trap seems better to me, though if someone just hits one pulse of the trap, it does less damage than previously.

Buffs: 6, Nerfs: 5, Mixed: 1

So, between all 6 professions, there were 55 skills that got buffed, 19 skills that were nerfed, and 9 that were mixed- nerfed in some way, but buffed in another. Far more skills were increased in effectiveness than were reduced- yet everyone is complaining about the skills that got nerfed.

The intent of these changes was balance- not coddling. If a skill seems too good to be true, or a no-brainer to put on your bar, then it's likely out of balance- Energy Drain, Ether Renewal, Debilitating Shot, Hex Breaker, and a couple others definately fit in this category- how many mesmers did you see before the update who didn't use Energy Drain, and how many people took mesmer secondaries solely for Energy Drain or Hex Breaker(or both)? Ether Renewal allowed people to infinitely spam spells without ever running out of energy- including throwing in a 25 energy cost spell quite often. Try doing that with any other skill in the game. Balthazar's Aura and Zealot's fire had the potential to do far more AoE damage and were much harder to avoid than any of the elementalist skills, and Elementalists are supposed to be the AoE-oriented class. Obviously, these skills were more powerful than others.

It's kind of sad when 5% of the skills in the game are used 90% of the time- simply because they are more powerful. Then when they are brought back into line with other skills, everyone complains about how their favorite build exploiting the power of those couple skills is ruined. Guild Wars has over 450 skills- ideally, they should all be equally attractive. Balancing means that skills should be brought to the same effectiveness- meaning the overly powerful skills should be nerfed and the underpowered ones buffed- which is exactly what this update did. The other option would be to increase the effectiveness of the other 95% of skills so they match the 5% that are above average- it's far easier to reduce a handful of skills than increase the others- especially when it's a choice between increasing 400+ skills versus reducing 20ish.

Overall, most classes got a very nice buff in this update. Mesmers got hit kinda hard, but I still have no problems making a mesmer build that generates a large amount of hatred in opposing teams. Sure, it's not as easy to drain an enemy completely out of energy and keep them from ever getting enough to cast a spell, but that's a good change too- it's not really fun to play a match where all you do is run around and try to stay alive without ever being able to contribute anything other than wand attacks due to an energy lock.

id0l · Sep 30, 2005, 05:01 AM // 05:01

I was shocked when I read this:

Capped attack speed adjustments at 133% of normal attack speed, down from 150% previously.

ArenaNet - are you saying attack speed buffs have been running at 150% this entire time...and you have never noticed this...? How can this be?

Regardless...why make them less useful? Is there a point to this? I think people would rather see a fixed skill description (reading: 50% increase in attack speed vs. the 33%) than to take an actual hit in the speed buff.

My reasoning? I use Flurry. Constantly. I know other people that do as well. It is (was?) a good, and UNDER-USED, skill. But it was borderline good. Us Flurry users use it mainly for...

a) Increased Adrenaline Gain
b) Increased Damage Over Time (yes, even considering the 25% less damage penalty)

...now...Alex, my man...

Why have ya'll decided to take this nice skill and throw it in the trash?

You might say, well id0l, we didn't change the skill!

But the speed debuff inherently changes the mechanics of this skill.

Frenzy, on the other hand, is still nice due to its SHORTER cooldown and LONGER duration (4 sec cooldown/8 second duration). But with Flurry still being a 5 energy requirement (as is Frenzy) and 5 second duration/5 second cooldown...it almost doesn't seem worth it now with a "nerf" in the attack speed.

Point being, you made me and other Flurry users cringe hard with this under-used [yet very useful] attack speed buff getting "nerfed", or as you might say "fixed."

All I ask...and I think this is a very, very small request...is to buff Flurry with a few different options:

a) Increase the speed of Flurry to (back to?) 50% faster attack speed.
b) Decrease the "less damage dealt" penalty of 25% to 15%.
c) Decrease the "less damage dealt" penalty of 25% to 20%, and extend the duration of Flurry to 10 seconds.

I rank these in order of personal preference...but I think alot of users of the skill would agree.

I know there may not be many Flurry users are out there. Their loss. But, PLEASE, Alex...don't soften my backbone warrior skill with this debuff.

At least buff up Flurry to counter the change, as I have proposed. The skill was already weak from lower damage and shorter duration than comparable skills (I do realize each of these skills has a penalty).

I would really like a response to this. I have already emailed Anet regarding this, but I never have much hope with that - I have gotten my share of cut and paste email responses. They will tell me to post it on the Forums, and I have done so. Now, I just need ya'll to actual consider it.

I will keep it in my skillbar, hoping that for the sake of all of us Flurry Warriors, we will once again have a reason to use this skill. I will continue to use it solely because receiving double damage (referencing Frenzy here) appalls me - especially when PvE'ing in FoW, UW, SF, and the like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

I think the problem always lies in "Yes, this certain combination of skills is overpowered, we must nerf it"

But for someone who just uses one or two of those skills in their build which is normal and not overpowered at all, it then becomes underpowered or weakened by the change.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

NightOwl · Sep 30, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Idol, I believe (could be wrong, perhaps) that stacking attack speed buffs could put you up to a prior max of 150%, now 133% is the flat max...one speed buff per customer please.

Edit: spelling error

BeatWolf · Sep 30, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The in-game music has been expanded.

That's the only thinkg i like about this update, the hit on mesmers render them even more weak. They die pretty damn fast since there a primary target (after monks) and they cannot absorb any damage what so ever!. There energy draining was there biggest upside and thats been nerfed

Seeing you pet's damage is pretty awsome tho.

MarkyX · Sep 30, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatWolf

That's the only thinkg i like about this update, the hit on mesmers render them even more weak. They die pretty damn fast since there a primary target (after monks) and they cannot absorb any damage what so ever!. There energy draining was there biggest upside and thats been nerfed

Seeing you pet's damage is pretty awsome tho.

Um..

Spirit of failire, warrior stances, prot spells might work.

Lots of options. Lots of whining too. Don't rely on monks too much.

Phades · Sep 30, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuLu

Energy denial. Again I can't speak for pve, but in PvP, energy denial was rediculous. Imagine playing an entire 30-40 minute match with 3-4 characters on yoru team at or near 0 energy. Energy lock was crazy. While energy denial should be effective, having your enenrgy at 0 for an entire much is no fun at all.

They over did it though, because i dont see a reason to use energy drain instead of offering of blood now. Also, if you are looking at a secondary skill, the difference between energy drain and tap is only 2 points gained, 1 point stolen at 8 ranks. At 3 ranks its the same for each, but at that low no skill line does a whole lot.

I like the multiplying effect, but the abscense of drain available hurts as well as how often it can be used. I also wonder how long its going to take before people realize you can have divine spirit up virtually permentaly for only 5e extra. Ice spear damage matches water trident, but outpaces flare by alot and frozen burst exceedes after shock damage, minus the additional knockdown effect. Lots of, er, funny stuff including the near spamable necro changes and the near pointless changes to ether prodigy and things like epidemic.

KonohaFlash · Sep 30, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

they broke a few skills that's for sure. they will be abused soon enough..

but one thing that really bugs me is why they buffed Desecrate Enchantments?!? i see no reason to this.. it's practically shouting "EVERYONE SPIKE WITH ME!!!"

ranger spikes, IWAY and smiting were all nerfed by the balance changes one way or another.. but FOC spiking? untouched by the nerf bat and even had Desecrate buffed. and with rangers interrupt spiking(best bet against FOC spikers) out of the way.. i think we have a new king of the tombs.. sigh

id0l · Sep 30, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl

Idol, I believe (could be wrong, perhaps) that stacking attack speed buffs could put you up to a prior max of 150%, now 133% is the flat max...one speed buff per customer please.

Edit: spelling error

Thanks for the insight NightOwl - but I don't believe you could/can stack any speed buffs as they are all stances (correct me if I'm wrong here)...and you can only use one stance at a time.

Besides, it wouldn't be efficient to bring along two speed-buffs for a 17% increase in attack speed...well, not to me at least.

MarkyX · Sep 30, 2005, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonohaFlash

but FOC spiking? untouched by the nerf bat and even had Desecrate buffed.

FOC sucks, thats why it isn't nerfed

Descerate needed that buff. It was 15 eng for something that didn't deal much damage unless your target was an enchant RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.

Hanuman li Tosh · Sep 30, 2005, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

FOC sucks, thats why it isn't nerfed

Descerate needed that buff. It was 15 eng for something that didn't deal much damage unless your target was an enchant RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.

yeah, people said iway sucks too, and that you cant make it to the hall with it. hmm, took the hall with iway before, took the hall with foc before. they nerfed iway but not foc, becasue not many people use foc (compared to other fotms).
we
todd
did

NightOwl · Sep 30, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

Thanks for the insight NightOwl - but I don't believe you could/can stack any speed buffs as they are all stances (correct me if I'm wrong here)...and you can only use one stance at a time.

Besides, it wouldn't be efficient to bring along two speed-buffs for a 17% increase in attack speed...well, not to me at least.

I Will Avenge You is a shout, and with iway warriors being /r, with Tigers Fury (stance) you get more attack speed from stacking the two.

Shynai_The_Storm · Sep 30, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

All in all, a damned good update. As all updates do, it sent most players back to the drawing board, so we can see a fresh set of new and interesting builds during the upcoming ladder season.

...and for those who so despise the "Mesmer Nerf"...why don't you take a closer look at some of the overlooked mesmer skills? With Mantra of Recovery, and a quick build adjustment or two, a primary mesmer can still E-deny just as effectively as he/she could before. How dare ANet go make you use rarely-used skills!

Hope everyone's enjoying the new update as much as I am. As it stands, I already have a page and half of new build ideas

MarkyX · Sep 30, 2005, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh

yeah, people said iway sucks too, and that you cant make it to the hall with it. hmm, took the hall with iway before, took the hall with foc before. they nerfed iway but not foc, becasue not many people use foc (compared to other fotms).
we
todd
did

anyone who takes halls with IWAY isn't facing good competition.

Sorry to say this, but the way HOH is designed, winning HOH isn't a freaking yardstick on how good a build is.

Phades · Sep 30, 2005, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote: